Uporabniški pogovor:Anton Mravcek~slwiki/Pogovor2004

Pozdrav

Dobrodošel na slovenski Wikipediji! Če želiš začeti obdelovati seznam števil, predlagam, da še malo počakaš, da 12 (število) skonvergira, potem pa lahko nadaljuješ.

Welcome to Slovene Wikipedia! If you want to work on seznam števil, I recommend that you wait for a while so that 12 (število) will converge, and then you continue. --romanm 14:44, 1 maj 2004 (CEST)

Thanks for the welcome! I will wait for the convergence on 12 (število). In the meantime, I will be studying the Slovenian language and browsing about this Wikipedia. Anton Mravcek 20:51, 1 maj 2004 (CEST)

Hi Anton. I hope that you agree with some of my recent modifications of number pages. If you have any other ideas about the form - just let us know. I've added some mathematical properties and I've took a style mainly from Italian wikipedia. I am very glad that you put your work to these pages. Do not worry about mistakes - we'll get them out anyhow. I am also glad to hear that your family once was able to speak Slovene. Again - you're very wellcome. Best regards/lep pozdrav. --XJam 23:42, 6 maj 2004 (CEST)

I like the new format, I think it combines the best features of the Docuan table in the English Wikipedia and the Sabbutian table in the Italian Wikipedia. As I study the Slovene language, some stray words I heard as a child are beginning to come back to me and it's nice to get back in touch with this part of my heritage. Lep pozdrav. Anton Mravcek 23:50, 6 maj 2004 (CEST)

Well, I am very glad to hear this. Thank you. Do we need some other number theory functions within these ones?

I just would like to say this about a term »(plain) factorization« that I've changed. I still have to figure it out what would be the best term in Slovene. I have some options:

• faktorizacija (put by you) (»factorization« or «factoring« as it is written on English wikipedia) - In fact even English wikipedia do not redirect correctly. The proper link should be integer factorization and so corresponding term in Slovene would be the third listed here - celoštevilska razcepitev...
• praštevilska razcepitev (meaning »prime factorization« with Slovene word for »factorization« (this one is currently in tables)), and
• celoštevilska razcepitev (meaning »integer factorization«).

I have some doubts that »prime factorization«/praštevilska razcepitev is the most common term in Slovene mathematical terminology. But nevertheless it might stay for a while. --XJam 23:57, 6 maj 2004 (CEST)

I'd say »razcep na praštevila« or »praštevilski razcep«. But I have to admit it's been some time since I heard that term. :-/ --romanm 08:48, 7 maj 2004 (CEST)

Eureca! Nice and intelligible (and quite short) term. I guess it would be fine to use it all over as [[praštevilski razcep|Razcep]]. --XJam 10:55, 7 maj 2004 (CEST)

I'm gonna go with [[praštevilski razcep|Razcep]] for the new ones for now. In the library I've found plenty of books on Slovene, all of them are on the language (which of course I need) and none of them about mathematics. The math books that are in languages other than English are usually in German, Russian or Polish. But I'm going to look at those math books in Polish, I might learn something. Anton Mravcek 23:05, 7 maj 2004 (CEST)

WikiProjekt števila/WikiProject Numbers

Dear Anton, check the WikiProject page Wikipedija:WikiProjekt števila I've created for dealing with numbers. I hope you'll find something useful. I shall also try to keep it up to date. PrimeFan named our info box (table) »Švutzdokujeva škatla« (the "Švutzdokuja table"). Lep pozdrav. --XJam 18:33, 17 maj 2004 (CEST)

Dear XJam, I have formally joined the WikiProjekt. It's very nice to have the template with the generic Number N so we can refer to it as the template is improved and refined. I don't really like the name »Švutzdokujeva škatla« for the info box but I suppose it'll only be necessary for the Projekt Pogovor pages. (Oh, and a quick language question: how is the word »škatla« broken down into syllables: »škat-la« or »ška-tla«?) Lep pozdrav. Anton Mravcek 20:28, 17 maj 2004 (CEST)

It is great that you've joined since you actually started the project! Yes, I have told PrimeFan that »Švutzdokujeva škatla/tabela« sounds terrible in Slovene - but let it stay as he coined it - and he does not speak Slovene. Strange but interesting that someone who do not speak Slovene think about numbers in general. The hyphenization of »škatla« is »ška-tla«. How about a »box«? You can leave messages in that page if you wish - even in English. I'll translate everything if you'll add some good ideas. --XJam 20:53, 17 maj 2004 (CEST)

Hvala! The »tl« combination is one I had only seen in Spanish before (the new »chi-po-tle« taco from Taco Bell, the only Mexican guy who works there says that's how you're supposed to say it, but they usually say »chi-pot-lee«).

Ahah. In Slovene there are many words which include »tl«. For example »tlak« (or »pritisk«) for pressure, and so on. For example SSKJ (Dictionary of Slovene Written Language) finds 584 words with »tl«, beginning with »antihitlerjevski« (anti-Hitler's) to »žatlaka«, what is dialectal for a certain type of one-handed axe (even I haven't heard for this word).

Then it's a sound I'm going to have to practice a lot. My instinct is to avoid the »tl« combination by splitting it across syllables.

I looked at the WikiProjekt page and I think I recognize most of the kinds of numbers, except for razredno število, fakultetno praštevilo (factorial prime?), edinstveno praštevilo in edinstveno število. Anton Mravcek 23:09, 18 maj 2004 (CEST)

»Razredno število« is to my opinion very important concept. I believe it is called in English a class number (which lies at ideal class group) (The last one, as I recall is 163). »Fakultetno število« is factorial prime, yes. Hm, let me think for »edinstveno (pra)število«... I guess I've translated it from the unique prime and perhaps I have exaggerated with the »unique number«. I have to check for »edinstveno število« (»unique number«) otherwise I shall delete it :o)

There are so many kind of numbers and I am thinking how to list them - in the best / natural way. Yes, we can think of some: composite/prime, highly composite, polygonal (triangular, triangular square, square, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, ...), Fibonacci, ..., but soon we are lost already. Is there any order in this listing - which number lies before the other and such. I guess there's no just one way to list them. --XJam 00:03, 19 maj 2004 (CEST)

I brought this issue up at the English WikiProject Talk. Two people responded, agreeing that base-independent properties ought to come first, followed by base-dependent properties. Anton Mravcek 23:02, 19 maj 2004 (CEST)

How many special numbers?

Hi, Anton, again. I thought that we might list every first ten special numbers, like you've done with the number 36 as sixth square number (kvadratno število). Of course I would not go any further if someone might think. So four more numbers for square numbers to go if they'll fall to articles. Is this all right? Check also our new form of the main page at TMP, thanks mainly to Sinuhe and Igor. 'See ya' in the world of numbers. --XJam 00:10, 27 maj 2004 (CEST)

That makes sense. And as an added bonus, it helps me, since the ordinals for the first ten numbers tend to inflect rather differently than later numbers. I will take a look at that new form. Anton Mravcek 00:09, 28 maj 2004 (CEST)

Slovene interwikies

Nice work Anton. You gave quite a push for pages about numbers in Slovene. I just would like to note that you should be careful about three Slovene letters (»šumniki«) »č«, »š«, and »ž«, (and capitals »Č«, »Š«, and »Ž«). They all work in Slovene wikipedia. In English version they unfortunatelly do not and we should type unicodes for them, that is:

&+#269+; for »č«, (typed without »+« sign...)

&+#268+; for »Č«,

&+#353+; for »š«,

&+#352+; for »Š«,

&+#382+; for »ž«,

&+#381+; for »Ž«.

If interwikies are written with them they shall redirect correctly to Slovene pages and if links do not work some robot will remove them from the source pages. That is all.

I also shall put first sentence to pages in a form like this:

2 (dva) je naravno število za katerega velja 2 = 1 + 1 = 3 - 1.

instead of:

2 = 1 + 1 = 3 - 1.

It is good that at first these pages all point out to the page »število« and such. I hope this is fine with you. Of cource you can still proceed as you wish in any type of form. --XJam 00:22, 11 maj 2004 (CEST)

Yes, I noticed the problem with the interwiki links containing hačeked letters in the English Wikipedia.

The first sentence form is fine with me and I will put it in the new pages; in fact I was thinking I should've asked for it. I wish to learn the Slovene language and I'm currently working through a basic conversational Slovene book and a comprehensive grammar book. Anton Mravcek 20:58, 11 maj 2004 (CEST)

Od nedavnega obstajajo tudi navodila za interwiki. Tipični vnos v angleški wikipediji je videti takole: [[sl:42 (število)]]. --romanm 00:27, 18 avg 2004 (CEST)

Tuještevno število (Nontotient)

Hello, Anton. I was trying to make an article about »nontotient (number)« but I have to admit that I do not know the correct Slovene term for it. Perhaps some other user (or even you) will provide it. In fact (as far as I know) even Euler totient function was an 'artificial' invention within English language - so I guess a term »nontotient« has similar origins. I have forgotten who had coined a term »totient funcion« (perhaps James Joseph Sylvester - but I am not sure). These numbers (nontotient) {14, 26, 34, 38, 50, 62, 68, 74, 76, 86, 90, 94, 98, 114, 118, 122, ...} have some interesting math properties, don't they. Lep pozdrav. --XJam 23:33, 10 avg 2004 (CEST)

Lep pozdrav. I tried doing a Google search within Slovene web pages for "Euler phi" and got a few results, but most of the results are for PS files. But I believe that we'll be able to find a proper Slovene term. I'd be more worried about the Nahuatl Wikipedia. Anton Mravcek 01:35, 12 avg 2004 (CEST)

As terms »totient« and »nontotient« are artificial in English (I still have to verify this somehow...), they might also be constructed in Slovene, perhaps as totientno število (»totient (number)«) and netotientno število. They sound terrible, but what it is it is. This is my suggestion until we find better ones. Perhaps Roman will say something more about it, as he is a mathematician with a degree. --XJam 02:14, 18 avg 2004 (CEST)

The Slovene expression for "Euler totient function" would be "Eulerjeva funkcija". I am not sure how to call "nontotient number", ie. numbers which are not in range of φ(n). Disclaimer: although I am "univ. dipl. mat." I work in the software industry and I never really worked in the mathematics field. Also I checked my notes on "Algebra II" and they don't mention special name for "(non)totient numbers". But I see some other mathematicians here that could perhaps help you (Frege and AndrejJ, to name a few). --romanm 10:10, 18 avg 2004 (CEST)

Yes, φ(ξ) would be »Eulerjeva funkcija« or similar to Riemann zeta function (Riemannova funkcija zeta) 'Euler phi function' (Eulerjeva funkcija fi - a link that we already have prepared in Slovene Wikipedia. So, a quest for naming nontotient in Slovene still continues..

Why is that a term in Nahuatl would be so hard to find? Does this language have some sort o scientific terminology (ST) or explicitly none? A language (as far as I know) which lacks of ST is Welsh (Cymraeg, y Gymraeg) (valižanščina). Slovene does have its own ST quite a long time. --XJam 01:28, 20 avg 2004 (CEST)

Maybe Nahuatl had scientific terminology at one point, but it doesn't today. The Main page of the Nahatl Wikipedia states in English and Spanish that "Nahuatl needs neologisms for encyclopedic development." The page on 14 is mostly in English, with the cardinal and ordinal words being about the only things in Nahuatl on that page, everything else being in English.

Netotientno število does sounds terrible and un-Slovene. How about we try another path: how would we say "coprime count" in Slovene? Anton Mravcek 23:33, 20 avg 2004 (CEST)

IMHO we should not invent mathematical terminology by ourselves. If we don't know the expression we should consult with an expert on that field. --romanm (pogovor) 21:51, 21 avg 2004 (CEST)

en: Hmh, yes Roman I understand your doubt about this. I partly disagree with you. I guess this won't be a problem. I have read a lot on number theory from Jože Grasselli - (and if my memory is still good I have never found such term in his books or articles, or Plemelj's or Vidav's on number theory of course). Of course I haven't read them all, but this is enough for sure for the Wikiopedia level. I might also consult some expert. You are very wellcome to name some. Here perhaps another problem occurs. All wikipedians won't be professional mathematicians. Even you have a degree from it, but you have never worked in 'math'. But in fact who has? Only professors and researshers 'work in math'. But engineers also, don't they. They also have right to discuss math terms, don't they. Similar is with physical and electrotechnical terms, which sometimes have same meanings and also different usages. The same thing is with Anton. He does not speak fluently Slovene, but he has Slovene roots and he is also interested in, both math and Slovene language.

I think that Frege could be considered an authority on mathematical theory questions, including terminology. We should ask him, and if not, we should ask someone who is professionaly involved in algebra; we can browse through employee list on FMF - Oddelek za matematiko until we find someone who is willing to answer. I'll write to some people I know. --romanm (pogovor) 00:15, 22 avg 2004 (CEST)

Of course we should ask an expert, romanm, but I see no harm in our trying to invent a term ourselves. Even if it's not the right term, I think it can help lead to the right term.

XJam, I think you should go ahead and write the article Eulerjeva funkcija fi and include subsections on nontotients and noncototients. When the right term is found, then the subsections can be moved into their own articles. Anton Mravcek 22:21, 22 avg 2004 (CEST)

I've made a stub about Euler's totient function and I shall include mentioned sections. Frege, obviously, is not within reach to ask, so I'll follow your proposal. --xJaM 16:42, 14 sep 2004 (CEST)

Excellent. I'll let you know if I come up with any new ideas for the terms. Anton Mravcek 22:52, 4 okt 2004 (CEST)

sl: Hmh, ja Roman rezumem tvoj dvom o tem. Delno se ne strinjam s teboj. Menim, da to ne bo problem. Prebral sem veliko iz teorije števil Jožeta Grassellija - (in, če mi je še spomin v redu, tudi nisem nikoli našel takšnega pojma v njegovih knjigah ali člankih, ali Plemljevih ali Vidavovih o teoriji števil seveda). Seveda pa nisem vseh prebral, vendar je to prav gotovo dovolj za nivo Wikipedije. Lahko tudi vprašam kakšnega strokovnjaka. Si zelo dobrodošel, da koga navedeš. Tukaj mogoče nastopi drug problem. Vsi wikipedisti ne bodo profesionalni matematiki. Celo ti si diplomiral iz nje, in nisi nikoli delal v 'matematiki'. Kdo pa v bistvu je? Le profesorji in raziskovalci 'delajo v matematiki'. Inženirji pa tudi, mar ne? Saj imajo tudi oni pravico razpravljati o matematičnih pojmih, ali ne. Podobno je s fizikalnimi in elektrotehniškimi pojmi, ki imajo včasih isti pomen in tudi različno uporabo. Ista stvar je z Antonom. Ne govori tekoče slovensko, vendar ima slovenske korenine in ga tudi zanima kot matematika, kot slovenski jezik. --XJam (p) 23:08, 21 avg 2004 (CEST)

143

Hi, Anton. Long time no hear What in fact does this really mean (from en:140 (number)): »Every positive integer is the sum of at most 143 seventh powers«? If I translate this sentence, it would sound like this: »Vsako pozitivno celo število je vsota največ 143. sedmih potenc«, but I still do not understand it. Can you say something more about this, so that I'll be able to translate it properly? We still haven't solved the translation about nontotient numbers. Unfortunately I can't speak French, so French won't help me much. Because the term »totient function« was coined by Silvester, it is possible to name such numbers simply as »netotientno/nekototientno število«, because it is somehow artificial term, and Slovene can borrow it from English. I guess this is not such a step forward, but just one idea. --xJaM 23:59, 20 dec 2004 (CET)

Absolutely. Good to hear from you too.

143 is the solution for k = 7 to en:Waring's problem, which asks what is the maximum amount of kth powers needed to sum up to any integer. (The powers need not be distinct, with 1^k being repeated often). For example, any integer x can be expressed as a "sum" of one first power, namely, x^1. Then for second powers, we have

1 = 1^2
2 = 1^2 + 1^2
3 = 1^2 + 1^2 + 1^2
4 = 2^2
5 = 2^2 + 1^2
6 = 2^2 + 1^2 + 1^2
7 = 2^2 + 1^2 + 1^2 + 1^2

There are other xs that need a sum of four squares, but any solution of more than four squares can be simplified to four squares or less, e.g., 8 = 1^2 + 1^2 + 1^2 + 1^2 + 1^2 + 1^2 + 1^2 + 1^2 = 2^2 + 2^2. This is something which I have fully proven to myself. But beyond 3rd powers it gets very tricky and I just take the experts' word that, for example, no more than 143 seventh powers are needed to sum up to any x.

About totients, the French term "anti-indicateur" literally means "counter-indicator". I've also suggested "coprime count" as a possible term. I'm sure there's a Slovene book on number theory that proposes a term. On this side of the pond the only Slovene books I can get besides dictionaries and grammars is a book of Slovene Corinthian poetry (an early Christmas gift from my wife). Anton Mravcek 21:58, 21 dec 2004 (CET)

Aha, I understand now about that sentence. Thank you for you explanation. I've also added sentences to those numbers which are related to Waring's problem. »Coprime count« would be somehow število (števec) tujih števil, since »coprime« is tuje število. French term »counter-indicator« would literally be števec kazalec, kazalec štetja (or something similar, but I guess without any sense). We have to be careful, since števec in Slovene also means numerator (upper part of a fraction (ulomek). Quite a mess, a? As I've said I have read some Slovene books from number theory (mainly of Jože Grasselli and one older one of Josip Plemelj), but I haven't found such a term. There is one new book, and I'll try to get it. If I clumsy translate a definition from en:Nontotient, the proper name might come out (somehow): 'Netotientno' število je pozitivno celo število n, ki ni v dosegu Eulerjeve funkcije φ, oziroma, za katerega φ(x) = n nima rešitve. Ali z drugimi besedami, n je 'netotientno', če ne obstaja nobeno takšno celo število x, ki bi imelo natančno n manjših tujih števil. In fact here we really count coprimes, regarding Euler's totient function. First such number is 14, since φ(x) = 14 has no solutions. All odd numbers are nontotients, except 1. We can get solutions for example for φ(x) = 10 and x= 11, 22, and so on. Literal translation of »coprime count« seems the best so far. --xJaM 23:02, 21 dec 2004 (CET)

You're welcome.

I like število (števec) tujih števil. The next step, I think, is to put these terms through some sort of "crucible" to see if any of them catches on, or maybe even leads to the correct, existing term. Perhaps we could take that step next year.

I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Anton Mravcek 21:54, 22 dec 2004 (CET)

The same wishes go to you, too. Yes, število/števec tujih števil sounds fine but »nontotient number« is a kind of number in this manner. Such name does not describe some property of a number, or certain kind of number but more of a function - like število praštevil (aka en:prime counting function). See the difference? We could also say »prime counting function« in Slovene as »praštevilska funkcija«, but term »število praštevil« is used instead in many Slovene number theory books. --xJaM 22:12, 22 dec 2004 (CET)

I see. (Word endings is what has given me the most trouble in learning Slovene so far. That and not having someone to practice the language in a conversational manner.) Anton Mravcek 22:31, 22 dec 2004 (CET)

Yes, the same goes with English, when you try to translate - particularly technical text. English speaker knows what in fact (simple words) as nontotient, coprime mean, but 'the lack' of word endings in English troubles non-English speaking. For instance, English article about colour sounds to me that it comes from some Shakespeare's work or that the article was rewritten from Newton's famous book (The) Opticks. If someone thinks that English is 'easy' because it is so widely used today, he is in a great mistake. It takes a great effort to translate English wikipedia articles, let us say, in Slovene. --xJaM 23:01, 22 dec 2004 (CET)

If I would be Slovene Sylvester I would call »nontotient number« in Slovene as »tuještevno število«! This is a good idea (based on your English term), but unfortunately it is just an artificial (but good) construction (or »konstrukt« as it is said in Slovene) --xJaM 22:22, 22 dec 2004 (CET)

»Tuještevno število«. That has a very nice ring to it. It fits better with the rhythm of the language. In fact, I think it is the best thing to come out of this brainstorm. So then would noncototient be »kotuještevno število« and highly totient number be »zelo tuještev število«? Anton Mravcek 22:31, 22 dec 2004 (CET)

Yes, I've seen PrimeFan's list about words for nontotients in other languages and his notice in your and my English user page. Noncototient should be »so-« (without negation, since term comes from coprime count, not from already negated nontotient!), since »co-« in Slovene means »so-«, for example »coaction« is called »so(delovanje)« and so on. So more properly would be »sotuještevno število«. »Zelo tuještevno število« would be correct, similar as zelo sestavljeno število (Highly composite number). I'll correct nesotuještevno število there as a proposal. --xJaM 00:21, 23 dec 2004 (CET)

And as I've said - we should not yet use the term as it is merely our invention. I guess Roman will speak up soon about this matter and I believe he won't agree, so caution won't hurt. But in similar manner we have come to the term about praštevilski razcep (it should point out to Integer factorization, not in fact to Factorization - I have to correct this), so this conversation is not in vain for sure. --xJaM 23:01, 22 dec 2004 (CET)